ONLINE POKER - SITE - Full Tilt

[Denethor]

I've read a bunch of different sites, but haven't looked much at the one you provided. Thanks for the link. And I'm definitely at the very beginning as far as experience.

When I asked about the other player folding, I probably was confusing. Obviously, he wasn't going to fold if he knew I had AK. He had me beat with the first card of the flop unless I got a miracle on the turn and/or river. If I were in his place, I would have assumed that the other player had AA and hit a third A on the flop beating my three Qs. I was curious what I did wrong that gave away that I had AK rather than AA. Or was he going to play it even if there was a chance I had AA just because of the odds? With my brief playing experience on FTP, I don't think I can remember a time I had QQ and won.

[VA Poker]

Denethor,
I know you want to play TAG, but you are thinking way way too tight. If you have QQ and the flop comes AQ4 rainbow, you should be jumping up and down, not thinking you are beat. Not only is your hand going to be tall almost everytime this happens, but you don't even have any strong draws to worry about (no flush draws and only one possible gutshot straight draw). In hold'em the odds to get dealt a pocket pair are 13:1 and when you do hold a pocket pair the odds of flopping a set are 11:1. You aren't going to flop sets that often on a non paired board and when you do, you almost always have the best hand. The odds of you having AA, him having QQ and you both flopping a set are extremly low. If you are going to throw away middle set on a regular basis because you put the guy on top set what hands are you going to like? The other thing I don't understand is, you had TPTK and you bet the pot all the way through. However, you said if you were him you'd have thrown away the three Queens. Why would you throw away three queens but play top top for all your chips? Top top can be beaten by alot of random hands becuase all it takes is two pair to beat it(in that hand he could have easily had aces up). However, his three queens was the second nuts so I don't know who would lay that hand down. If I were you, I'd loosen my play up alot, see alot more flops. I read your earlier posts stating that you have an ultra tight starting hand selection to minimize post flop mistakes. If you are just starting to play you should play more pots and welcome mistakes (thats the only way to learn). When I started playing poker there was no online micro stakes and I had to learn the hard way playing 1/2 hold'em and losing hundreds of dollars at a time. You should take advantage of the fact you can learn on very low stakes (or ever for free if you want) and loosen your play up a little bit. If you try some different styles you'll learn more and get a feel for which style works best for you when you start moving up in stakes. Just a thought, good luck.

[buck22]

Hi, i know this isnt about full tilt but i need a good moan. I just spent 12 hours as chiplead in a tourny out of 1286 people only to bubble the final table because of the fekin retards that shouldnt have got that far in the first place! I spent the whole tourny avoiding big coinflips and big stax only for some tosspot to shove all in with AQ and spike an ace, then tosspot number 2 shoves in with A9 to spike, guess what, another fricken ace! Bubbled in 11th position taking $100 for my efforts, not even minimum wage! So this rant is dedicated to all the f***ers that shove half a mill with AQ, damn u all. Damn good game though. lol

[Denethor]

Thanks for the advice VA.

Even in just the short time I've been playing, I've been burned quite a few times. That's why I have so little confidence in hands that should be no-brainers.

I do seem to spend a lot of time just folding. That's why, even thought I've sat through a decent amount of hands, I really haven't had much chance to play many of them or gain much experience after the flop. I'll experiment with more risks

[eldave1]

No one knows if the site is rigged or not since we do not have access to the HHs and FT has failed to provide a reputable audit that would at least put a dent in the debate. So - in my opinion it is rigged. I have a caveat - my working definition of rigged is that the results do not reflect what one would experience in a live game.

In live - when you get down to 20% of the field, there are mostly solid players left with a few donks sprinkled in (who normally do not last much longer). At FT - it is just the inverse.

In live - you RARELY get the totally inexplicable calls (e.g., 8 3 offsuit calling an opening bet of 4 times the BB). At FT - you get them all the time and they get paid (i.e., you love the call live, you hate it on FT because your lose more often then you should).

In live - your odds stay pretty consistent throughout - e.g., AA wins 80% in the beggining, middle and end (over the long haul). At FT - my stats are totally skewed - I may win AA 80% overall, but it is 40% when all or most of my chips are at risk, etc. I win half the coin flips early and when there is little at stake, I win 30% when it is late and a lot at stake.

etc.

Lately, I have been polling live players (I paly tourneys about 4 times a week) to see which of them play on-line. The vast majority no longer play (i.e., they used to) because they believe it is rigged. So even though it is what they love to do and can do it from the comfort of their bedroom - they chose not to any longer. They say because it is rigged. I interpret that to mean that it does not mimic the expereince they have in live games.

[Cransley69]

Ahhh...full tilt strikes again. I'm getting so good at this that I can now predict the future...sadly, my days as a psychic are numbered as my account on full tilt is nearly out and I am never playing there again...anyone who does is an idiot (as I was for several years before I worked out what's going on.)

So this time I get A5clubs. I'm in late position and a player to my right, who tends to raise whenever he enters a hand raises three times the BB. I call and we are heads up. Flop comes 5h 3d 6d, giving me a pair of fives.

Player checks and I bet two-thirds of the pot. Player calls. Turn comes 5s, giving me trips. THE VERY MOMENT IT APPEARS I RECOGNISE THIS HAND FOR WHAT IT IS. AN ACTION HAND DESIGNED TO TAKE ALL OF MY CHIPS. I know that I'm ahead, I know he's going all-in and I know the miracle suckout is coming. I sat there and predicted it, and - being a sad old git - actually said to the computer - "come on then Full Tilt - prove me wrong".

Player checks. I bet two thirds of the pot, he goes over the top, putting me all-in. At this point I'm putting him on a high PP and recognise that he has just 2 cards that can rescue him, whilst I have 42 safety cards, but I still know, absolutely with certainty that I'm saying goodbye to my money. I call.

Sure enough Pocket Kings. In the fraction of a second before the river I say to the computer "come on then, show me the king", and whoopee doo ...right there on the river out it pops.

Now of course, I recognise that 2-outers do happen, but it's when they happen time after time after time after time, against the odds, that you know there's something fishy going on. Since my last post my account has dwindled. Every single all-in bet I make has the same result - I'm ahead when I make the bet, and behind by the end. There is no way that the dealing on this site is random. Give me a live casino any day.

Anybody recommend a site that works - I hear Titan Poker is good. Good Luck all.

Cransley69

[VA Poker]

Are you really complaining? That is a terrible pre flop call. You tried to degrade your oppenent and excuse your poor play by stating he raises every time he enters a hand. That is actually the optimal play, it is far better to open a pot up with a raise than call another's raise(like you did) or limp in. If you would have just folded pre flop (like you should have) you wouldn't have lost any money. What about the fact that the pot was 20 BB's deep when you spiked a 5 outer on the turn? I guess your 5 outer was skill and his 2 outer was luck right? You were behind on every street but one, but somehow this guy is a luckbox and you got screwed.

Once again, Im not even here to debate the legitimacy of FTP(I'm smart enough to know when I don't have enough info to be sure of something). It's just my opinion that many times people post their hands that they think are hard evidence the site is rigged, the hand was played very poorly (this one being a perfect example). Instead of examining your own play and your call with ace rag facing a bet from MP pre flop you just cry rigged. Did FTP force you to make that call pre flop? If you would have made the correct play you wouldnt have lost a penny on that hand. I don't care if FTP is rigged or not, what I do know is that if you spend more time crying over an online site than you do examining your own game you'll lose no matter what site you go to.

One more point, if you were holding KK and raised from MP, the guy two over on your left called you with A5 and hit 2 5's you would be freaking out and putting it on here crying rigged. Get over it and stop posting your hands, the only thing you are proving is that you are a pre flop calling station.

[Cransley69]

VA Poker

you are a complete 100% arse. There isn't a professional player in the world who isn't going to call a raise of 3 x BB with Ax suited in late position, over an opponent who enters a lot of pots with that raise. As to being a calling station pre-flop, I note that you provide no advice to my previous post when someone goes all-in against you, pre-flop, and you're holding pocket Aces...presumably that's a fold to you!

You also miss the point entirely. I accept bad beats. What I do not accept is the regularity they occur on FTP - they in no way reflect REAL poker, played at a casino, where the cards are dealt in a truly random (or at least very close to random pattern). I should get sucked out on in the above circumstances 1 time in 21. On FTP it is more like 1 time in every 2...although recently it has been EVERY time. That isn't natural, but hey! you go on playing there...it's your money.

You also haven't got a clue about Texas Holdem principles. Since you obviously haven't a clue and you need a lesson in poker, here goes:

There are 169 possible starting hands in Texas Holdem. Amongst them, A,5 suited is ranked 27th strongest (28th in Sklansky's ratings, but 27th when played to the end against any random starting hand). It is a playable hand - moreso than, say A,8s and A,9s, because it has straight as well as flush possibilities. It is a good hand against a large stack because it has good payoff possibilities if you hit your draw.

It is a starting hand that can be either raised, or smooth-called before the flop to a moderate raise - even more so when in position (as I was).

On the above flop, out of the 26 stronger starting hands, there are 8 that are ahead and 18 that are not. Opponents bet could have been K,J, A,10 A,J A,Q A,K or any other of the non-pocket pair combination that my hand beats on the flop, but which were stronger holdings pre-flop. The odds are that I am ahead on the flop and the check of my opponent tends to indicate that (he was actually slow-playing, but there is nothing to indicate that until he's gone all-in later in the hand)

Had my opponent check-raised a considerable amount after the flop I would have folded, putting him on a high PP. As it was he smooth called, allowing me to see the turn, which gave me the dominant hand.

I have played this hand fine - you could argue that a half-pot sized bet after the flop is risking less to a check-raise, but I wanted to represent something stronger than a standard continuation bet , hence two-thirds of the pot.

My play here is fine, so take your head out from where the sun don't shine and get real. FTP is rigged.

[Denethor]

I'm just glad that I'm running out of money on FTP so I can leave.

Last night, I played a little and lost quite a bit when my QQ lost to J5o when the board came 75598.

Then this morning, I was messing around again. Sat through about 25 hands. Lost most of what I had with AKs when another player had AA. The very next hand, exact same thing happened again to someone else - AKs beaten by AA. Obviously, AA is the better pre-flop hand over KAs, but it's the same thing what odds keeps talking about.

Just sat through another 20 hands at a low table. Got only garbage the first 18 hands and folded all of them. Then was dealt JJ both the 19th and 20th hands. Lost the first time to A3o when he paired his A on the flop. Lost the second time to AA.

At least I'm almost free from FTP.

[nitemare6]

Cransley...

you are 100% correct so why argue. I only post on hre to help other newbie, uninforemd (suckers) from losing more money on a nonrandom, fixed and rigged poker site.

The real proof of your poker ability and discipline is whether you can stop playing there like I did, a couple years ago, or maybe just play $1 turnaments from time to time, and not risk more than $50 if you don't mine getting frustrated every other hand, and ruining your live playing skills.

For me it's not fun playing on a non-random and skewed RNG site where, anecdotally, there seem to be far too many unusual hands. This has nothing to do with AA v. Ak or A5 v 56, etc.or whether Qs hold up. Rather, what bothers me is when I fold a hand that mnany other more aggressive or newer players would not (i.e .make a good fold) and I see the hand unfold with what is almost certainly a SET-UP deal such that more players have to see the flop, turn, and river, unless they are psyhics, which of course is not playing poker... and then some miraculus card is dealt that had a 10% chance. this happens all the Fking time. Not poker.

Fortunately there have been a lot of live tournaments and live games in Chicago lately, and sure enough, there are bad beats adn suck-outs. But FOR SURE they do not occur in any unusual pattern and at least I know that deck has 52 cards and is shuffled each hand AND without any pre-design subtely programmed into the deal, like on Full Rigged Tilt.

So, if you or others who bitch on this forum continue to play for any singificant money on FTP, then please stop bitching. Either stop playing there or take the crap that you will continue to receive on this rigged, off-shore, unregulated "poker" site, and call it F-T-BINGO.

[Denethor]

Originally Posted by nitemare6

Cransley...
For me it's not fun playing on a non-random and skewed RNG site where, anecdotally, there seem to be far too many unusual hands. This has nothing to do with AA v. Ak or A5 v 56, etc.or whether Qs hold up. Rather, what bothers me is when I fold a hand that mnany other more aggressive or newer players would not (i.e .make a good fold) and I see the hand unfold with what is almost certainly a SET-UP deal such that more players have to see the flop, turn, and river, unless they are psyhics, which of course is not playing poker... and then some miraculus card is dealt that had a 10% chance. this happens all the Fking time. Not poker.

I've noticed that, too. There have been a lot of times where I thought if I played the terrible hands like others do, I'd actually be winning more. I get a 63o which would have been a full house if I'd played to the river. I get A5o which would have been a straight with 234 on the flop. Etc. And in each case others had respectable starting hands like AJs or something (or even AA or KK) that would have lost had I played the junk.

[VA Poker]

Cransley, thank you for you post cursing me. Keep calling with A5 against a raise from early position, you'll do great. Let me ask you this, even if FTP is rigged, why do they screw you EVERY time like you say? Just by chance wouldn't they have to rig it for you sometimes? Did they pick you out once you set your account up to screw you? Given the fact the you have "69" in your name and you curse at people on online forums, I'm guessing I'm much older than you and have played much more live ( I guess thats what you mean by real????) poker than you ever have so I don't need a lesson in "real" poker, thanks though. If you think professionals would make that call pre flop you are absolutely dillusional. Are you saying you called that pre flop hoping to make a flush? Why else would you call, even if you spike the ace on the flop you have no idea where you are in the hand because his range of raising there would include A6-AK all which would have you dominated. But you think it's good to call A5 even if he could have you dominated because you are suited? Thats good for a laugh atleast. Next time you complain about a hand why not pick one in which you were behind basically the entire time. Whether or not FTP is rigged complaining about it on this forum does nothing to help your game, however if you were willing to examine your own play that would help you alot. OK, now you can reply cursing me because I critisized the way you played one poker hand, that really shows your maturity.

[eldave1]

"There is nothing wrong with playing A5s from LP in a NL cash game (I'm referring to 6 max here...."""

What Odds - you got this perfectly correct in my view. I would add this to the "you played it wrong crowd" - According to who???? I have read several books and I know that the pros would have played this a dozen different ways:

* Danny N would have probably min raised
* Ivey calls for sure
* Grinder calls for sure
* Hansen - please - he probably thought it was the nuts.
* Helmouth folds
* Gordon folds

etc. etc. etc.

The point being, we mere mortals ought to be a bit less confident in whether a hand was played correctly or not since the poker Gods can't agree amongst themselves. I - for me - would have played the hand exactly like it was played with a slightly different twist then "WHAT ODDS". I like the potential monsters - suited ace in late position is one of those where your opponent can dead hit their hand and you can still take all their money if the flop comes right for you as well. Finally I think the point is this from the prior post - at least in my humble opinion - the Hero played the hand much better then his opponent (with KK I raise at least 5 BBs preflop as I do not want rag ace calls) and I would have never let the hero see the turn if I survived the flop). The KK was played horribly in my view and still got rewarded. That does not prove anything about the randomness of FT - but the hand play was fine.

[VA Poker]

whatodds, eldave,
Both of you guys stated there is nothing wrong with calling with A5 suited, not in the blind, facing a raise from MP at a 6 max table. Cransley posted a picture of his hand and he was clearly at a full 9 man table so that was not the case in this hand. The reason I think it was a poor call is A5(suited or not) is totally dominated by 17 different hands(A6-AK and any pair 5's or better), all of which are in most players range of opening up a pot in middle position. The only way you are not dominated there is if your opponent has 2's,3's,4's or KJ, KQ, maybe QJ suited. So, in the average online players range of raising there, 17 hands have you dominated, 3 hands are a coinflip, and you are slightly ahead of 3 hands. Thats why you shouldn't call pre flop with ace rag in my opinion, it is dominated by the majority of hands people are opening pots with, and it dominates exactly ZERO hands. Even if the other guy has A2 you're just going to chop it. I'd much rather call with 10Js or even 78s than A5s. Maybe you guys disagree, but in my opinion people overplaying ace rag is one of the most common mistakes in hold'em.

I don't mind you saying I'm part of the "you should have played it that way crowd", but keep in mind; the only reason I even had the opportunity to second guess his hand is because he is part of the "lose a hand then post it on a forum as it is proof of something" crowd. The reason why I said something is many other players were in his seat they wouldnt have lost a dime and examining your own play always helps where as crying about a hand on a forum generally doesn't do much for your game. If you don't want someone second guessing your hands just keep them off an online forum.

[Cransley69]

VAPoker

You talk as if the only thing that matters in Holdem is the strength of your hand pre-flop, and that's not the case. What matters, more often than not, is the strength of the hand you can represent. That is one of the advantages of having position - you can tell a lot from the betting patterns of your opponent and can put pressure on them to fold the better hand, by representing something stronger. You can generally take advantage of those occasions when they have missed the flop, which will be more often than not.

How do you think Gus Hansen, Phil Ivey, Tom Dwan play...watch high stakes poker and see for yourself...they are ALWAYS playing A5s, heads up in last position. Why? Because it's a positive equity strategy.

This is why playing A5s is a reasonable play here...the vast majority of the hands that opponent is likely to hold, would have missed the flop and why playing an aggressive style at most pots (particularly when last to act) is a profitable play, in the long run.

I averaged $35k a year at the Bicycle casino, (just playing evenings and weekends) playing the style I do at full tilt. The difference was that the cards were dealt randomly. Suck-outs like the ones at FTP occurred the correct amount of times, representing the odds of them happening. At FTP that just doesn't happen. Going all-in with the strongest hand before the river will always return a profit in the long run in real poker. At FTP, as I have found to my cost, you will ultimately lose by playing that way. Hence it is rigged - or whatever term you prefer for a random number generator that clearly isn't random!

What Odds hits the nail on the head. By delivering more action cards the pots are made bigger and their rake increases. There are billions of dollars involved in this industry and a small % increase in the take by the house equals a huge sum of money.

Don't try and pretend that there isn't a financial motive behind what goes on here...there is.

[eldave1]

I appreciate your comments as I beleive they are genuine. For the record - I am sure that there are many folks that would agree with your strategy regarding A-5 suited, etc. - Just recognize that there are many who do not who are very successful players as well. In addition to the actual cards, what is not available is what the intent of the A-5 player was (e.g., to steal a hand, etc.) and what the pattern of the raiser had been - i.e., did he have a read on this guy?

Employing ABC poker (i.e., premimum hands in position only) is one recommended approach to poker. I abandoned it in favor of Danny N's small ball approach as I found it much more profitable - at least for me. I was fininshing to many live tourneys in the bubble area - not any more - winning now. Funny - I won a tourney this morning an the critical hand for me was a min raise I did with A 3 diamonds against a pretty tight player. Flop came A-3-3 - he had A - K and I took all his chips. Had he re-raised me preflop I could have gotten away pretty cheaply. Anyway - I don't think your opinion on the play was necessarily wrong - just wanted to point out that there are many varied valid ways to play the game.

What the poster was frustrated about though had nothing to do with that hand. It had to do - I'm guessing here from my own experience- with a foking inexplicable string of hands where he was in with the best (whether form starting best, trapping, lucky ass flop, etc) and when all the chips are in the hand does not hold up time after time. It is not the bad beat - it is the bad beat pattern, It is the flop that hits just enough of everyone pattern, it is the one turn card that keeps 5 players in pattern that he is reacting to. It wasn't really about A-5.

Take care friend

[Cransley69]

Absolutely spot-on analysis Eldave.

I would never moan about the occasional bad beat - that is part of the game and we all benefit from them as well as lose to them on occasions. It is the frequency of their occurrence at this site, giving a run of improbable results that, taken together, are statistically a virtual impossibility.

The way to win money at poker is to have an edge over the odds, sufficient to make you an above-average player AND to cater for the loss of the chips to the rake...a few percent of edge is all it needs.

You achieve that edge by developing intuition - knowing when to fold a strong hand, knowing when a strong raise will force a timid player to ditch the best hand, etc - and by winning more pots than would be won by your hole cards alone. This last part comes from playing position well, making well timed bluffs and semi bluffs, and maximising your chips when you have a winning hand.

Going all-in with the best hand, heads up, is a guaranteed way to win money in the long term, when playing poker. The odds of the suckout are always smaller than the odds of the win. At this site this is the most glaring "adjustment" of the game by the code-writers - it just doesn't happen the way it should, when compared to the odds.

[eldave1]

Feel your pain WHATODDS. I lost the last five showdowns as a favorite (rebuilding stacks each time) before going out on the hand below.

This was a perfect flop for me as I was short stacked (thanks to the shit above) hoping to catch other players with rag aces - so I slowplay at first (a mistake perhaps). When 3 people stay in (one guy was already all in) I thought - oh fok - someone has K with better kicker - oh well. Then I say to myself - no, this is FT - some fok is staying with a J-10 gutshot even though there is AKK on the board. Please no Q - at least let me lose to K - 10. Sure as shit - river = Q - gut shot (4ht best hand) wins, As a note - this fok was winning whatever trash he played the whole tourney. egads.

Full Tilt Poker Game #12213891912: Satellite to FTOPS Main Event (91264173), Table 5 - 150/300 Ante 25 - No Limit Hold'em - 11:10:45 ET - 2009/05/14
Seat 1: falafaf (4,280)
Seat 2: de bierkar NL (5,145)
Seat 3: hustletakova (20), is sitting out
Seat 4: loosencrazy (5,620)
Seat 5: cecumm (10,295)
Seat 6: FubiusMaximus (5,620)
Seat 7: eldave1 (2,560)
Seat 8: nicolae05 (465)
falafaf antes 25
de bierkar NL antes 25
hustletakova antes 20, and is all in
loosencrazy antes 25
cecumm antes 25
FubiusMaximus antes 25
eldave1 antes 25
nicolae05 antes 25
de bierkar NL posts the small blind of 150
hustletakova checks
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eldave1 [9s Kd]
loosencrazy folds
cecumm folds
FubiusMaximus calls 300
eldave1 calls 300
nicolae05 folds
falafaf raises to 600
de bierkar NL folds
FubiusMaximus calls 300
eldave1 calls 300
*** FLOP *** [Ks Ah Kc]
FubiusMaximus checks
eldave1 checks
falafaf bets 600
FubiusMaximus calls 600
eldave1 raises to 1,200
falafaf calls 600
FubiusMaximus calls 600
*** TURN *** [Ks Ah Kc] [6d]
FubiusMaximus checks
eldave1 bets 735, and is all in
falafaf calls 735
FubiusMaximus calls 735
*** RIVER *** [Ks Ah Kc 6d] [Qh]
FubiusMaximus bets 900
falafaf calls 900
*** SHOW DOWN ***
FubiusMaximus shows [Jh Td] a straight, Ace high
falafaf mucks
FubiusMaximus wins side pot #2 (1,800) with a straight, Ace high
eldave1 mucks
FubiusMaximus wins side pot #1 (7,790) with a straight, Ace high
hustletakova mucks
FubiusMaximus wins the main pot (160) with a straight, Ace high
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 9,750 Main pot 160. Side pot 1 7,790. Side pot 2 1,800. | Rake 0
Board: [Ks Ah Kc 6d Qh]
Seat 1: falafaf (button) mucked [As 2c] - two pair, Aces and Kings
Seat 2: de bierkar NL (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 3: hustletakova (big blind) mucked [2s Ad] - two pair, Aces and Kings
Seat 4: loosencrazy folded before the Flop
Seat 5: cecumm folded before the Flop
Seat 6: FubiusMaximus showed [Jh Td] and won (9,750) with a straight, Ace high
Seat 7: eldave1 mucked [9s Kd] - three of a kind, Kings
Seat 8: nicolae05 folded before the Flop

[Cransley69]

What Odds

It is quite clear to me, seeing these hands, that you and I are having the same experience...I will also bet - and correct me if I am wrong - that between these pocket Aces being cracked each time you did not have any that won hands, unless they were to players who all folded to an average raise.

That is what I find with AA and KK on Full-Tilt...you either lose a stack by the cards being rigged against you, or you just take the blinds.

Anyone else find this?

Oh...and before long that poker god, VA Poker, will come along and tell you its because you're a bad player!

Cransley

[buck22]

Gone back to my pokerstars account at start of the month, and it really feels like im experiencing the ANTI-RIG! I am playing like a demon of course, and in good shape 90% of the time, but im winning at a ridiculous rate, its awesome, but this month, my roi's are about 130% and BB/hr is like 35, is that just how poker roles? Or is it a bit of a coincidence that the British promotions are on this month hmmmmmm. Hope its just good play and would thouroughly recommend pokerstars at mo lol. Ive been full tilt free for months, good ridence to that bauush*t! If it aint workin, quit the site ffs.

[Cransley69]

Just started playing Titan poker...what a difference. you get the nuts on the turn and you don't get sucked out on....Had three, all-in bets hold up tonight...never used to get that at FTP

[VA Poker]

Denethor,
If you can handle it financially, I would suggest moving up in stakes just a little. As you said, at that level it is very hard to read people and even put people on certain ranges in certain situations. whatodds gave you some good advice about calling re raises pre flop, but at the stakes you are currently playing at it's hard to win with that strategy. You are going to get re raised pre flop so often that if you only play back with AA KK QQ or AK you are just going to get run over. So that forces you to make big calls pre flop with things like KQ, which is not a habit you want to develop . Alot of players have trouble at the lowest stakes then move up and start to do a little better. As far as learning the game goes, you'd be just as well off playing play money as you are playing .01/.02. Also, a good way to see alot of hands at slightly higher stakes without much risk is to play single table sit n go's. They pay out 33% of people so you can play those all day without worrying about losing too much money.

[VA Poker]

Denethor,
I don't know the exact probabilities of these hands but i will assume you have the correct information. What you have to realize though is that in a bubble no hand is probable. Meaning you could pick four random hands and figure out the probability that those hands would be dealt at the same time and it would be very very unlikely. There is no possible combination of hole cards four different people could have that would be anywhere close to probable. If four guys had A4,68,22,KJ that might seem to some to make alot more sense but the probability that the hand was going to be dealt just like that is extremly low. However, if four guys had those hands you wouldn't be posting on here how ridiculous it was. If you honestly think whatever site you are playing on is corrupt then play somewhere else; but spending so much time and energy trying to decide whether or not sites are rigged will never help your game. Even if you are right, it's not going to help you as a poker player. Play somewhere you atleast think you can trust and from there just focus on your game. If you just think they are all rigged just don't play because you will never improve if you are sure you are playing on a rigged site.

[VA Poker]

In my opinion you need to examine your results over a bigger sample size than you are currently. Just because you had a couple bad days doesn't mean you are necessarily doing anything wrong. Even the best players in the world have long losing streaks. Just focus on playing well and making the right decision. If you make the right decision and get sucked out on there's nothing you can do about it.

Also, maybe I'm biased about this because I'm a little older, but I wouldn't put too much faith in all those little programs that tell you exactly how to play. When I first started playing there wasn't even online poker much less all that stuff and I honestly think I am better off because of it. It's hard to get an edge on the field if you are all following the same programs telling you what to do. If you aren't worried too much about the money you'd probably be better off throwing all of that out the window. It could possibly hurt you a little bit in the immediate future but it will help your game down the road.

[Denethor]

I have removed the text of all of my posts which you believe are detracting from the thread. If you want them gone entirely so as not to "undermine the entire thread", you will need to remove the text from your replies, as well.

I have to say that I see some irony and hypocrisy in your posts. You declare with absolute certainty that FTP is actively and intentionally "rigged", but then declare with equal certainty that other sites are beyond reproach. I specifically said I was not accusing PS of being rigged but simply said something didn't seem right lately.

You didn't stop there, though, and further went on to describe me as a "losing player[s] who [hasn't] got a clue about poker and [is] blaming a site being rigged for their losses". When I was complaining about FTP instead, you were defending me as a victim. You're entitled to your opinion on both FTP and PS and my abilities (all of which are likely correct), but don't pretend that you are just "trying to help me" and then use such terms to describe me.

[buck22]

I agree that recording hands as they play out could throw up some dodgy results, but it would take a hell of a long time. You would need to record:
a)hand number
b)table number
c)flop,turn,river precise cards
d)what street the money went all in
e)precise odds of outs
f)out come

This would need to be done over a minimum of 100,000 RANDOM hands without error. I tried this for 100 hands and it took me 3 hrs to record it, and 3 hrs painstakingly calculating odds for each hand. So basically, it comes down to who wants to stare at a screen for 1000hrs keeping precise records to prove that a site is rigged when there is the overwhelming possibility that it's not and that you've just infact wasted a year of your life for f*** all.
If you could round up 100 willing participants, how do you know the other 99 aren't misrecording stats, you'd need to be 100% sure your sh** is accurate.
I reckon the only way to do it is for someone to write a program that can record the desired stats from the poker site and leave it running, otherwise its too time consuming and innaccurate.

Also, if any old dumbass with a spare year can prove a gambling site is rigged, don't you think a multi-billion dollar company would cover their tracks a little better e.g. maybe balancing the badbeats with unusual good stretches to avoid detection from a paranoid with a pencil and pad.

I don't mean to be negative about this plan but if it was that easy to expose a poker site, someone with the computer programming know-how would've already done it, especially if 2 whining gamblers like us have both tried it. Either find a dedicated, out of work system programmer or switch to pokerstars and be done with it.

[buck22]

Ok whatodds, i'll record 200 random all ins and put it in my next post

[buck22]

sorry whatodds, got to about 30 hands recorded and theres about 4 bad beats so far, same thing happened last time i did my 150 hand sample, sort of see a bigger picture when u see all the all ins in a row, seems pretty cosur to me, give it a go urself

[Cransley69]

Played for 6 hours today at Titan Poker. Bought in for $50 with .50 and $1 blinds. Played solid, aggressive poker, exactly as I have always tried at FTP and how I used to play at the Bike. What a difference!

It felt like 'Real' poker, with my hands and other peoples playing out pretty much as they should with just the occasional suck-out. Such a relief to find out that I am not going mad - that you can actually win online.

When I think of the months and months at FTP, playing a game of 'chip-attrition', where every all-in move was met with an outrageous suckout; where my thoughts were "this has to end soon, turn around in my favour" - but never did. I now know from this site that I was not alone - that somewhere along the line I was being had (as other people have been too.)

When are the Feds going to latch onto this and investigate it?

Good Riddance FTP. I won $404 today which is something I could never do at your site. Glad to be out of there, and never going back.

Good luck at the tables all.

Crans

[VA Poker]

Cransley,
You think the "Feds" should investigate FTP. If you are referring to the United States Federal Government you are insane. Don't you know it is illegal for anyone in the US to play internet poker for real money? Thats like saying the "Feds" should investigate your local bookie because he isn't giving you the Vegas odds on Lakers/Nuggets game. If the "Feds" ever get around to investigating FTP it won't be because they aren't giving the right odds it will be because it is illegally servicing US players.


What do you guys really think you are going to accomplish by all of this? Honestly? FTP is worth billions and they operate a business that doesn't fall under the jurisdiction of any particular government or even a governing body of poker, which of course does not exist. If you guys think its rigged just don't play, when you are gambling in a semi illegal manner you can't exactly go cry to the BBB. If there was a local card game in your town and you thought something shady was going on there would you call the cops to investigate or would you just not play there anymore?