howard lederer is wayyyy more tight than phil, so right away i know you have no clue...annie duke??i know she beat him heads up that time , but none of these ppl have done what hellmuth has...as far as losing his never, im more than sure you are not qualified to say one way or another...all the players you mentioned, while they are good players, would all agree that they are on a lower level than phil has been on through his poker carrer